[mgmirkin]

On the topic of fractals & discharges, I might point to this article:

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/servlets/purl/877322-XdWdOd/877322.PDF

Note the image at the bottom of the document looks a lot like the "spiders" as I noted on this thread:

http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=103&start=15

Whether or not "fractals" are a real / tangible thing, or an aspect of the mathematical / computational dream world, I couldn't tell you... I mean, fractals are "self-similar" across scale. So are electrical discharges, methinks. So, electrical discharges seems to be fractals, or fractal-like. But does that INFORM us in any way, or does it simply add noise to the discussion. I guess I'm saying, "Okay, electrical interactions can be fractally self-similar. So what?" I mean, does it add info to the discussion, or point it down an uninformative dead-end? I couldn't tell you.

Cheers,
~Michael

[mgmirkin]

I might also point to a couple other interesting articles I turned up after looking up T. Gold (he wrote an interesting abstract on Electrical interaction @ IO in 1979 {!}) on http://adsabs.harvard.edu ...

(Evidence for a surface Transport Mechanism on the Moon)
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1974LPICo.195...36G

(Electrostatic Effects on the Lunar Surface)
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1974LPI.....5..273G

(Electrostatic Transport of Dust)
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1974LPICo.195...38G

Cheers,
~Michael

[dahlenaz]

Thanks to all those that suggested doing the CRT experiments with it in horizontal screen orientation. Ian was one and Michael, and there must have been others. This suggestion was the one i was following as the new phase of discovery was developing. dz

[dahlenaz]

Thanks to all those that suggested doing the CRT experiments with it in horizontal screen orientation. Ian was one and Michael, and there must have been others. This suggestion was the one i was following as the new phase of discovery was developing. dz

[chessdude3]

If your monitor has been disconnected from the supply for a few hours all the capacitors on the circuit board will be discharged, however, if you are going to disconnect the final anode connection from the CRT itself (the large connector on the side of the CRT with the high voltage lead coming from it to the flyback transformer) then make sure it is discharged.

To do this I always have a length of wire with alligator clips on both ends handy, clip one end on to the metalwork surrounding the CRT, the other end clip on to the blade of an insulated handled screwdriver then slip the blade under the insulating cup surrounding the connector until it touches the connector itself. Any charge left will be discharged safely --- leave it connected for a few minutes then you can remove the connector itself.

However, in most cases when working on monitors it is not necessary to remove this connector as usually you can withdraw the circuit board far enough to allow access to most components.

If you are not sure about this then get help from someone who is familiar with monitor circuitry as these things use high (potentially dangerous) voltages.

[dahlenaz]

Chessdude, Thanks so much for the tips.

and to all other for their contributions to the cause. I've been busy with experiments and documenting them to images and posting some of them to a site recently set up for the purpose of filling people in on details and results. You can now see some of the results at http://www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/backyard_experimenter.html Follow the many path to some cool stuff. Your feedback on the content's accuracy is appreciated. If you have some details to contribute, let me know and i'll attempt to work them in. Don't go too crazy on this, bits a pieces are all I can handle at this point of familiarity with site building. One of the pages of particular importance is associated with Dave Talbott's previous observations about Martian spiders of the the south polar region. See links to his thunderbols.info articles linked to some of the pics. http://www.geocities.com/Martian_Spiders_on_CRT.html Thanks again and let me know how you'd want to be mentioned on the references page, and all the glory goes to the Lord Jesus for his role in "ordering my steps" and giving me life more abundently. dz

[dahlenaz]

Chessdude, Thanks so much for the tips.

and to all other for their contributions to the cause. I've been busy with experiments and documenting them to images and posting some of them to a site recently set up for the purpose of filling people in on details and results. You can now see some of the results at http://www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/backyard_experimenter.html Follow the many path to some cool stuff. Your feedback on the content's accuracy is appreciated. If you have some details to contribute, let me know and i'll attempt to work them in. Don't go too crazy on this, bits a pieces are all I can handle at this point of familiarity with site building. One of the pages of particular importance is associated with Dave Talbott's previous observations about Martian spiders of the the south polar region. See links to his thunderbols.info articles linked to some of the pics. http://www.geocities.com/Martian_Spiders_on_CRT.html Thanks again and let me know how you'd want to be mentioned on the references page, and all the glory goes to the Lord Jesus for his role in "ordering my steps" and giving me life more abundently. dz

[dahlenaz]

In reply to Michael's input comment;
"Whether or not "fractals" are a real / tangible thing, or an aspect of the mathematical / computational dream world, I couldn't tell you... I mean, fractals are "self-similar" across scale. So are electrical discharges, methinks. So, electrical discharges seems to be fractals, or fractal-like. But does that INFORM us in any way, or does it simply add noise to the discussion. I guess I'm saying, "Okay, electrical interactions can be fractally self-similar. So what?" I mean, does it add info to the discussion, or point it down an uninformative dead-end? I couldn't tell you."

Cheers,
~Michael[/quote]


dz> I'm glad you caught my reasoning for posting this concept of where fractal-like ends. Some people get so caught up in what some-things-are-like that they stop looking at what things are, they get into forms of abstractions and loose the connection with the core subject's details.

From some comments made by our local experts, on the conmlexity of plasma, the point can be made that geometric computations cannot model the variations as well as real-life experimentataion and observation.

We need to get away from theoretical constructs and go with the tangible evidence. To do otherwise would take us down a similar path that has ensnared, in some ways, modern achademia and the poeple of the sciences that take the mathamatics by computer modeling too far, turning their theoretical constructs into fiction. dz

[dahlenaz]

In reply to Michael's input comment;
"Whether or not "fractals" are a real / tangible thing, or an aspect of the mathematical / computational dream world, I couldn't tell you... I mean, fractals are "self-similar" across scale. So are electrical discharges, methinks. So, electrical discharges seems to be fractals, or fractal-like. But does that INFORM us in any way, or does it simply add noise to the discussion. I guess I'm saying, "Okay, electrical interactions can be fractally self-similar. So what?" I mean, does it add info to the discussion, or point it down an uninformative dead-end? I couldn't tell you."

Cheers,
~Michael[/quote]


dz> I'm glad you caught my reasoning for posting this concept of where fractal-like ends. Some people get so caught up in what some-things-are-like that they stop looking at what things are, they get into forms of abstractions and loose the connection with the core subject's details.

From some comments made by our local experts, on the conmlexity of plasma, the point can be made that geometric computations cannot model the variations as well as real-life experimentataion and observation.

We need to get away from theoretical constructs and go with the tangible evidence. To do otherwise would take us down a similar path that has ensnared, in some ways, modern achademia and the poeple of the sciences that take the mathamatics by computer modeling too far, turning their theoretical constructs into fiction. dz

[dahlenaz]

http://www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/troubleshooter.html

resolved

[dahlenaz]

http://www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/troubleshooter.html

resolved

[Plasmatic MnemoHistory]

Hello Dahlenaz ,Ive uploded some more pics at imageshack.Ive reproduced an example of craters in a row as seen here

http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050818cleancrater.htm



as well as electric wind seen here

http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/051108electricwind.htm


Also of interest I have taken the ionizer out of its shell and will be borrowing a digital recorder to post a video.
When I use a rubber handled screwdriver with a magnet on the end it creates a draft that erodes the powder with no discharge and in the process some powder collects on the handle/magnet like it is the colection grid.Probable similar to your finger Dalenaz.





Click the images to see them up close.
_________________
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"....Ayn Rand

[dahlenaz]

Great to see your results rewarding your efforts. Your setups and adaptations are quite interesting. the magnet on the screwdrives wise, just to mention one.

While you're making crater-chains keep a close eye on how they look in regard to the direction of travel, the whole one related to the semi's.

On the electric wind, did you see my backyard_experimenter_2 pic of the spiralling column? The outbursts are of particular interest as well as the twisters. A black backdrop and a level shot might show up some cool stuff. I've also learned that activity can begin to happen at much greater distances than we might think. Powder carrying streamers are seen in many of my video sessions and they've been seen as early as six inches+/- off the surface, often real faint, but the fiberglass powder i'm using brings out many details that i would have missed with dirt.

Congrats on your results!

An image uploading note. I can understand wanting to put the finest detail image up for show, but download time can be quite high so my recommendation is to convert your thumbnail pic to a <50k jpg and then link it to another jpg that is 99% the size of the original. Ive noticed that can trim time off without reducing the image size. dz

[dahlenaz]

Great to see your results rewarding your efforts. Your setups and adaptations are quite interesting. the magnet on the screwdrives wise, just to mention one.

While you're making crater-chains keep a close eye on how they look in regard to the direction of travel, the whole one related to the semi's.

On the electric wind, did you see my backyard_experimenter_2 pic of the spiralling column? The outbursts are of particular interest as well as the twisters. A black backdrop and a level shot might show up some cool stuff. I've also learned that activity can begin to happen at much greater distances than we might think. Powder carrying streamers are seen in many of my video sessions and they've been seen as early as six inches+/- off the surface, often real faint, but the fiberglass powder i'm using brings out many details that i would have missed with dirt.

Congrats on your results!

An image uploading note. I can understand wanting to put the finest detail image up for show, but download time can be quite high so my recommendation is to convert your thumbnail pic to a <50k jpg and then link it to another jpg that is 99% the size of the original. Ive noticed that can trim time off without reducing the image size. dz

[lk]

.Has anyone made a can-pincher? Here's a wiring diagram:
http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Image:Can-pincher.png
.We've seen the pinched can, so I'm ready to see something else get pinched. Star formation doesn't involve a big aluminum can. We may not be able to simulate a star forming region and use the can-pincher on it, but we can probably improve on the can. Anyone got ideas?
.Here are a few ideas I got about what to put in the can-pincher:
steel wool, moist clay, styrofoam, foam rubber, bag of snow, bag of iron filings or various powders, twinky, hotdog, cucumber....
.How much do I have to pay someone to build a can-pincher and do such experiments?
.I like the work you guys are doing on CRTs & ionizer experimenting. I wish I could participate in person a little.

[dahlenaz]

I've added some more images as an extension of the site set up to discuss the experiments and the Martian Spider look-alike results. http://www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/Martian_Spiders_On_CRT.html . Many of the images have links to larger pics and the links at the bottom of the page will get you to other stuff. these site are under development so let me know of any problems of errors. dz

[dahlenaz]

I've added some more images as an extension of the site set up to discuss the experiments and the Martian Spider look-alike results. http://www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/Martian_Spiders_On_CRT.html . Many of the images have links to larger pics and the links at the bottom of the page will get you to other stuff. these site are under development so let me know of any problems of errors. dz

[dahlenaz]

Recent results from the CRT tests have opened up a new avenue of potential explanations for other features far different than craters but not unrelated.
During an experiment involving two monitors, passing at close prozimity screen to screen, discharges produced negative-spiders with associated craters on the other monitor. These craters had unique and consistant features made by accumulated material which extended from the rim inward a short distance.
In another phase of the experiment material was gathered to a spidery feature and heeped up substantially.
In another phase, material was deposited to a clean screen which had been exposed to discharges with power on and off. Features associated with the discharges appeared as dust streamed off my finger and was attracted to power-off spiders and the area around power-on discharges leaving circular, crater-like areas. dz

[dahlenaz]

Recent results from the CRT tests have opened up a new avenue of potential explanations for other features far different than craters but not unrelated.
During an experiment involving two monitors, passing at close prozimity screen to screen, discharges produced negative-spiders with associated craters on the other monitor. These craters had unique and consistant features made by accumulated material which extended from the rim inward a short distance.
In another phase of the experiment material was gathered to a spidery feature and heeped up substantially.
In another phase, material was deposited to a clean screen which had been exposed to discharges with power on and off. Features associated with the discharges appeared as dust streamed off my finger and was attracted to power-off spiders and the area around power-on discharges leaving circular, crater-like areas. dz

[dahlenaz]

Attention lk and plasmatic;



Now to the cool stuff that just happened in an experiment. I was setting up
a plastic lid of material on the CRT for the purpose of distributing the
sifted and filtered AZ dirt onto the screen when a dramatic reaction
occurred as i set the lid down. I turned the monitor on a approached the
material in the lid with my finger, an interaction resulted with the dust
being blown away by an electric wind of sorts, i could feel it on my finger.
A large circle was carved out in the dirt and what remained of the
circumference had vertical walls and the inner part of the circle was
undisturbed. This interaction lasted until the discharging ended and if i
approached fast the results were explosive but if i came in slow the erosion
could be seen are it progressed. We saw this kind of interaction with high
voltage and i never imagined it was possible in the CRT experiment. Allot
was happening that i'll need to video for better understanding, but its a
simple set-up that anyone can do, so tell me your results. I used an old crt
(a Dawoo vga), sift the some dirt and filter through a nylon stacking. Place
it in a plastic lid off a pringles can or similar (such as a resealable
container of raisins) and place it in the middle of the screen. Turn power
on and off checking for activity in each config. The material goes wild so hold your breath and cover anyplace where you don't want the dust to go. dz

www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/backyard_experimenter.html

[dahlenaz]

Attention lk and plasmatic;



Now to the cool stuff that just happened in an experiment. I was setting up
a plastic lid of material on the CRT for the purpose of distributing the
sifted and filtered AZ dirt onto the screen when a dramatic reaction
occurred as i set the lid down. I turned the monitor on a approached the
material in the lid with my finger, an interaction resulted with the dust
being blown away by an electric wind of sorts, i could feel it on my finger.
A large circle was carved out in the dirt and what remained of the
circumference had vertical walls and the inner part of the circle was
undisturbed. This interaction lasted until the discharging ended and if i
approached fast the results were explosive but if i came in slow the erosion
could be seen are it progressed. We saw this kind of interaction with high
voltage and i never imagined it was possible in the CRT experiment. Allot
was happening that i'll need to video for better understanding, but its a
simple set-up that anyone can do, so tell me your results. I used an old crt
(a Dawoo vga), sift the some dirt and filter through a nylon stacking. Place
it in a plastic lid off a pringles can or similar (such as a resealable
container of raisins) and place it in the middle of the screen. Turn power
on and off checking for activity in each config. The material goes wild so hold your breath and cover anyplace where you don't want the dust to go. dz

www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/backyard_experimenter.html

[Plasmatic MnemoHistory]

Hi dalehnaz ,I appreciae the gesture ,and if I could ,would love to attend.But Im quite unable to do so at this time.
_________________
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"....Ayn Rand

[dahlenaz]

The need for a stand-in at the IEEE07 connference is resolved.

You can see the poster presentation in it's text form with links to the pictures used at http://www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/poster07.html

Thanks for all the helpfull input. dz

[dahlenaz]

The need for a stand-in at the IEEE07 connference is resolved.

You can see the poster presentation in it's text form with links to the pictures used at http://www.geocities.com/dhlndsign/poster07.html

Thanks for all the helpfull input. dz